Emergency Preparedness Minister Bill Blair and RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki took turns Monday denying pressuring the RCMP, or interfering in the police investigation into the Nova Scotia mass shooting, saying that their approaches were appropriate and warranted, given the unprecedented nature of the situation.
The pair were the key witnesses at a special hearing of the House of Commons Public Safety and National Security Committee on Monday. The meeting was convened by MPs seeking a full airing of the facts following allegations that, in pushing forward a new gun ban, federal officials put pressure on police in the aftermath of the worst mass shooting in Canadian history.
A month after allegations of political interference in the matter first made headlines, Blair was the first in a series of key officials to testify Monday as part of the opposition-led parliamentary probe. He told the committee that while he did not direct the RCMP or Lucki in the investigation of the April 18-19 2020 killing rampage that left 22 people dead, the horrific event was "highly motivating" in his efforts to advance gun reforms.
"At no time have I ever interfered operationally or given operational direction to the RCMP in my role as the minister of public safety," Blair said, going on to tell MPs that despite opposition assertions that the timing of the Liberals’ move to ban assault-style weapons was politically motivated, the work to implement the policy was "several months" in the making.
For her part in the controversy, RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki testified that she was not directed to publicly release information about the weapons used to help advance federal interests, but there was pressure for information about the incident, information she said she too didn't think was flowing freely enough from the RCMP investigators in Nova Scotia.
"It was my responsibility to keep relevant officials apprised of the evolving situation, while maintaining the integrity of the operation. Were the requests for information and updates political interference? No." Lucki said. "And in my dealings with Minister Blair, he was very conscious of this and has never sought to interfere in this investigation."
Concerns of improper political meddling were sparked when a series of documents released as part of the Mass Casualty Commission revealed notes from lead investigator, Nova Scotia RCMP superintendent Darren Campbell, that suggested Lucki had made assurances to Blair and the prime minister's office that the RCMP would release information around the firearms used by the perpetrator. Later on Monday, a few of Campbell's colleagues defended his recollection of events.
In his handwritten notes, Campbell suggested that after his officers did not speak to the types of guns used during a press conference 10 days after the mass shooting, Lucki expressed disappointment with him, alleging that the top Mountie had claimed the release of the information was tied to pending gun control legislation intended to make officers and the public safer.
At the time, the Nova Scotia RCMP — which was under heavy scrutiny for its handling of the case from the start — said that releasing additional information would jeopardize the ongoing investigation into the perpetrator’s access to firearms.
Days later, on May 1, the prime minister announced a ban — through regulations, not legislation — on 1,500 assault-style weapons, including weapons used in the Nova Scotia shooting. Moving forward on gun control measures was a pre-existing Liberal commitment dating back to their 2019 election campaign.
LUCKI CITES 'MISCOMMUNICATION'
In her first public appearance on the matter, Lucki restated her denials of interfering in the case, while offering new details about the interactions she had with the minister and her police counterparts.
Lucki said that while she regrets how she approached the April 28 meeting she had with Campbell and others, and while RCMP employees "may have different perspectives" on how it went down, the discussion was "necessary."
Lucki said she called the virtual teleconference—as the COVID-19 pandemic was still in its infancy— because the commissioner wanted to express her "frustration and disappointment," about the communication between her office and those leading the investigation.
"It needed to happen. It was essential that I had more timely and accurate information. And it was important that my team understood my expectations going forward," Lucki said.
"What was getting frustrating was that the media was reporting everything before we did…So we needed to get in front of it," she said.
In regards to whether or not she made a promise to Blair's chief of staff that police would release details about the guns used, the commissioner told MPs that she was asked asked by Blair's office whether information about the firearms used would be part of the press conference, to which she said yes.
Lucki said that was based on the information provided to her from her colleagues. "I didn't promise, I confirmed the answer to his question," she said. "Asking questions is not interference."
"I was trying to convey that I'd already confirmed to the minister that the information about the weapons would be released during the press conference, a confirmation made based on the information I had been provided," Lucki told MPs.
"Due to a miscommunication, this was not the case, and I felt I had misinformed the minister, and by extension the prime minister. These were difficult, dynamic, and demanding circumstances. Everybody was doing their best to provide as much information to the government, to the public, to the media, about this appalling event."
Lucki also told MPs that she did connect the sharing of the N.S. perpetrator's guns to "the minister's mandate letter," after facing questions from her colleagues about why sharing those details was so important.
The commissioner was accompanied by Deputy Commissioner for Contract and Indigenous Policing Brian Brennan, who is responsible for overseeing local policing services outside of Ontario and Quebec. Brennan was present for the meeting between RCMP officials and confirmed to MPs that he tried to calm things down.
"I felt that we were revisiting the same thing over and over again, and we needed to start focusing on how to move forward. So my focus was on: let's learn from these mistakes or these issues, and how are we going to do better in communicating in the future? And that's what I was trying to steer the conversation toward," he said.
"Communications and the complexity of the whole situation was adding to it and it was something that we needed really to work on, to make things clarified for governments, for our employees, and for the general public."
BLAIR ON GUN BAN TIMING
Blair—who at the time of the shooting was Canada's public safety minister—was accompanied by Rob Stewart, deputy minister of the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.
Appearing in-person at the committee in Ottawa, Blair shot down suggestions from the opposition that the new gun regulations were hastily drawn up "on a napkin" in the aftermath of the shooting in an effort to capitalize on the mass killing.
He did confirm, though, that the government chose the date to announce the gun ban after the shooting.
"The terrible tragedy that took place in Nova Scotia, the worst mass casualty shooting event in our country's history, was for me very impactful. And all of the work that we had been doing for months and years leading up to that moment, it certainly had the effect of deepening my resolve to move forward as quickly as possible," Blair told the committee.
The minister detailed months of work done to compile the list of guns that would be included, tracking it from the election commitment mention, through to it being mentioned in the subsequent throne speech and put in Blair's mandate letter. He also cited strong public support for the measures, suggesting that the government did not need to tie the move to the guns used by the shooter in Nova Scotia.
"I did not ask the commissioner to release that information, nor did she promise me that she would," Blair said.
From the outset of the allegations, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has repeatedly denied that his government put "any undue influence or pressure" on the RCMP. Instead, the prime minister has said, in the immediate aftermath of the mass killing, federal officials had many questions about what transpired and what police knew.
Blair elaborated on this on Monday, saying that the event was "without precedent."
"There were a number of concerns being expressed from the victims’ families, by my counterparts in the province of Nova Scotia, by the media, and by the community, about the lack of information that people were receiving about what had transpired, and there were a number of very important questions that were arising,” Blair said Monday.
“And I know that was one of the challenges that the commissioner had ensuring that, you know, on the one hand protecting the integrity of their ongoing criminal investigation, and on the other hand, ensuring that that people's questions were answered," Blair continued.
Blair and Stewart were the first of three panels of witnesses testifying during the hours-long committee meeting. For his part, Stewart offered, as far as he was involved and could recall, more details about the nature of conversations had in federal offices in Ottawa in the aftermath of the mass shooting.
"To the best of my recollection, the commissioner had provided some assurance that the RCMP would provide the public with a full story of what had happened, and what they knew," he said.
FORMER OFFICERS OFFER INSIGHT
The third and final panel of Monday's marathon meeting saw MPs hearing more testimony from a pair of former, and one current RCMP official, who were present on the call referenced in Campbell's notes and offered their recollections of what they all agreed was not a pleasant meeting.
"Commissioner Lucki was controlled but clearly frustrated and dissatisfied with our overall communication efforts. I cannot speak to how others felt but it was emotional for me. I don't know anyone that likes to hear that their boss is unhappy with their work, particularly after so much effort," said Sharon Tessier, who at the time of the mass shooting was the director general of national communication services for the RCMP.
She told MPs that in the days following the shooting she was advocating for a timely release of information to the public and media, pushing to see the RCMP share as much as they could while balancing what had to be withheld for investigative purposes.
"One such item was the weapons used. The public knew about the presence of guns and I advised that we provide as much detail as possible. In crisis communications, silence is not golden, and can bring doubt, rumours and speculation."
Tessier said she was the one who told Lucki that "high level" information about the make and model of the guns used would be part of the preceding press conference on April 28. When that didn’t happen, it was clear the commissioner was not pleased, Tessier said.
Then-assistant commissioner and commanding officer of the RCMP in Nova Scotia Lee Bergerman effectively corroborated her colleague Campbell's account of the call, defending his performance during the press conference Lucki was displeased with, as "excellent."
Bergerman told MPs that participants in the teleconference were "blindsided" by Lucki's tone, calling it inappropriate, saying there was talk of pressure coming from an unnamed minister, but admitted she did not have any direct knowledge of any prior conversations that occurred.
"The reaction was, I would say, confused and a bit stunned, actually, because any police officer knows that if you're in the middle of an investigation, certain information cannot be released," she said. "It should have never been shared with her that we were going to release details of weapons and calibers or whatever the ask was."
Similarly, RCMP Criminal Operations Officer in Nova Scotia Chief Supt. Chris Leather said after going back and speaking with Campbell, he agrees with his colleague's reference as they pertain to "statements made concerning the minister, the Prime Minister's Office, and the impending gun legislation," as it related to what he called the "gun inventory" in this case.
When asked whether she had the same impression of what was said by Lucki on the call as the Nova Scotia officers did, Ottawa-based Tessier said no. "I do not remember talk of pressure or any of the like."
MORE HEARINGS EXPECTED
In a pre-hearing press conference, Conservative MP and public safety critic Raquel Dancho laid out her party's concerns about what's known to date about what she characterized as the federal government's "appalling and disgusting" alleged involvement in this situation, saying her intention is to get "clarity and honesty as to what transpired."
In her questioning of Blair, Dancho asked if he would provide the committee with the calendars and call logs from his office as well as those of his chief of staff and deputy minister between April 18 and April 28, the timeframe in which the alleged events and conversations transpired.
In response, Blair said he had with him, and would be handing over, a timeline of when he and Lucki had conversations on this topic during the period of time in question, which he said was not daily but frequently in the aftermath of the shooting. His deputy also offered to turn over his schedule.
Reacting to the testimony, Dancho told reporters she felt helpful new information has come to light, including about the ask from Blair's office whether gun details would be released by the RCMP.
Asked though, where the committee goes from here given both Blair and Lucki said there was no pressure, Dancho said she still has more questions for others involved in the matter.
Specifically, the RCMP's Campbell, who is central to the allegations. He didn't testify before MPs on Monday as he was appearing before the Mass Casualty Commission, where he said it was a "no-brainer" in the aftermath of the killing spree, to withhold details of the guns used.
In the meeting, the Conservatives led a successful push to have the committee continue its investigation. This will include holding further hearings ahead of Parliament's return in September, in which Campbell as well as other connected officials will be invited to appear.
