New York Times draws backlash over podcast on ‘liberal feminism in the workplace’

An image of two women in the workplace. (Pexels/Photo by Tirachard Kumtanom)

Dr. Vera Kohut had just walked into her first interview in a family practice clinic when she was a young physician, ready to answer questions about her capabilities as a health-care professional.

Instead, what she was asked left her shocked and embarrassed.

During the interview, the lead clinician asked Kohut if she had recently gotten married. Puzzled, she answered “yes,” wondering what her marital status had to do with the position.

Next, she was asked if she was on the pill.

“I remember that moment so vividly because I was stunned. I was embarrassed. I was in shock. I felt almost like, ‘Oh my God. What did I do to deserve the question?’” Kohut, a family physician and medical director at Toronto’s Serefin Health Clinic told CTVNews.ca earlier this week.

“I was livid.”

When Kohut pressed on why she was asked that question, the lead clinician replied, “because we want to know when you’re going to have a family.”

A published transcript by the New York Times of a recent episode of columnist Ross Douthat’s podcast, “Interesting Times,” has drawn the ire of many across the globe, including Canadian experts.

The podcast episode features American conservative political commentator and author Helen Andrews and author Leah Libresco Sargeant, as guests discussing feminism in the workplace.

The transcript, originally titled “Did Women Ruin the Workplace? And if so, Can Conservative Feminism Fix it?” was later changed to “Did Liberal Feminism Ruin the Workplace?” – in what is being perceived as a reaction to the public outcry, according to an article in Ms.

The article called it a “polished repackaging of old patriarchal ideas dressed up as intellectual debate.”

Douthat begins the podcast by stating men and women are different, adding “that is a core premise of conservatism in the age of Trump, that liberalism and feminism have come to grief by pretending that the sexes are the same.”

“No one — least of all feminists — is pretending men and women are ‘the same,’” author of the Ms. article, Jodi Bondi Norgaard wrote. “According to Merriam-Webster, feminism is ‘the belief in and advocacy of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.’”

Outlets such as Vanity Fair, the Wrap and the Guardian have each come out with a version of their own opinion articles in response to the original, slamming the New York Times for the transcript that was “splashed” all over the home page.

“I feel confident saying that if you’re a woman, you’re allowed to cyberbully Ross Douthat,” Vanity Fair’s Hillary Busis said, while the Wrap’s Tess Patton said the piece had “ruffled some feathers.”

“This week, Mexico’s president was groped in public,” the Guardian’s Arwa Mahdawi wrote. “But a New York Times podcast is fretting about excessive wokeness.”

A form of ‘moral panic’

Celia Edell, a research associate in philosophy at the University of British Columbia says blaming women or “liberal” feminism for societal and institutional changes is dangerous, and a form of “moral panic.”

“Whenever there’s a kind of some kind of wave of feminist progress, it tends to provoke backlash,” Edell, whose expertise focuses on feminism and oppression, told CTVNews.ca. “Things like the panic over political correctness or the panic over the #MeToo movement. It’s kind of the same thing happening again, except now it’s the term ‘wokeness.’”

According to Edell, even the setup of the piece is a problem.

It frames the workplace as a neutral space that gets disrupted due to the presence and participation of women, she added, because treating the male, patriarchal norms is the default standard.

“Ultimately, feminism didn’t ruin the workplace, because it didn’t invade the workplace,” she said. “The male dominance of the workplace is just losing grip over it and the old hierarchies of work are starting to crack, and that instability is being framed as decline.”

Feminist reform has not just “invited” women into the power structures, she added, but it has started to “create cracks” in the architecture.

“This idea that men own the workplace and women just enter into it and cause problems is questioning that architecture itself, (which) is very threatening to that status quo,” Edell said.

‘Intellectually weak’

Jennifer Berdahl, a social psychologist and professor at the University of British Columbia, calls the piece “lacking evidence” and says its use of “woke” is inaccurate.

Berdahl criticized podcast guest Helen Andrews for her caricaturish understanding of women and men in the workplace, calling it “intellectually weak and dishonest.”

“What we’re seeing here is a dual attempt to push back on progress that’s been made in the workplace for women and for racialized minorities,” she told CTVNews.ca.

Men and women are capable of the same cognitive outputs in the workplace, with no differences in gender-based productivity, Berdahl says. However, she adds that the impact of the caregiver’s role on women’s productivity is substantial, and cultural changes are required to address these inequalities.

“I think the article itself is a form of backlash against the progress that’s been made through diversity, equity and inclusion, and gaining more representation of women and racialized minorities in the workplace,” she said.

According to a Canadian government explainer on Equality in Action, women often end up doing more unpaid work, such as caring for family or cooking and cleaning.

“On average, women spend four more hours per week caring for adults and eight more hours per week caring for children, in comparison to men,” the website read.

The gender pay gap continues to exist in Canada, according to the website, with women only earning 87 cents for each dollar earned by a man for the same work.

“Women make up nearly half the workforce but only 36 per cent of them are managers, and shockingly, just five per cent of Canadian companies have a woman CEO,” the explainer said. “On top of that, when women get into these positions, they’re still being paid less than men at the same level.”

According to Kohut, women bear the brunt of dual responsibilities between balancing work and family life. Mid-career Canadian woman have a higher rate of burnout, she added, saying it can be fixed if employers offer predictable working hours and flexible schedules as a business strategy, instead of a perk.

“This is where a lot of corporate memory and knowledge is stashed, she said. “When they leave, they’re not only leaving with an impact on their own lives ... they’re leaving with an impact on the companies, the universities, the professions.”

Supporting women is not a luxury, but a necessity for business sustainability, Kohut added.

“We want to retain skilled and experienced talent,” she said. “We want to engage and encourage women to stay in the workforce and grow in the workforce.”