OTTAWA -- Prime Minister Justin Trudeau sat down with Evan Solomon, host of CTV’s Power Play and Question Period, for a year-end interview, reflecting on a year like no other. The prime minister discussed his COVID-19 regrets, while defending his deficit spending approach. He also reflected on the year in foreign policy and the ethical controversies that occupied his Liberal minority in Parliament.
Here’s a full transcript of that conversation, it has been edited for grammar and clarity.
COVID-19 AND VACCINES
Evan Solomon: A hard year, a strange year.
Justin Trudeau: It's been a tough year
Solomon: Look, it's a tale of two Canadas right now: it's a tale of hope and a tale of despair. Let's start with the hope, and the vaccines.
Trudeau: I don’t even know that it’s two different Canadas, everyone's got the hope and the despair at the same time.
Solomon: Fair point. But let's start on the hope side because why not? You got the Pfizer vaccine coming, you’ve got the Moderna pending approval, that'll be great. Health Canada says that all Canadians could be vaccinated by September 2021, but we bought more vaccines. Is there a chance that more vaccines get approved, Canada gets them, that we could actually accelerate the timeline as we've already seen it accelerated by a month? Is that possible?
Trudeau: Certainly it's possible. I mean that's one of the reasons why we set out to set up the best range of vaccines we possibly could, and secure way more doses than Canada would technically need because we knew that some vaccines would be faster, some vaccines might be more effective or less effective than others. We made a commitment to do right by Canadians and that's why we had such a solid plan on vaccines. So, things could happen quicker. Things could also happen slower if there are less efficient vaccines, or production challenges in the companies that are delivering them.
Solomon: So that date of everyone gets vaccinated by September could be earlier, maybe later. So that's a conservative estimate then?
Trudeau: Yeah. I mean we know that, think about it Evan, six months ago everyone was like ‘oh I hope there'll be a vaccine, but there's no vaccine, it takes years to build vaccines.’ What scientists and researchers have been able to do, to give us not just hope, but the knowledge that this pandemic will be over, that yes we’ve still got a tough winter to go through, but the end is in sight and we just have to hold on and we'll get through it, is a huge thing.
Solomon: It is, and I think it's great. I don't want to diminish the hope, the scientists and the distribution has been incredible. But, Canada has got a very small number, and you know in the new year there's probably going to be a case of vaccine envy because the United States says they're going to vaccinate 20 million people by December. We’ll barely be 210,000 people. The U.K. also. How did they get so many more vaccines so quickly? Because that's consequential in terms of lives lost and businesses, so the numbers matter at the start.
Trudeau: The numbers matter at the start, sure. But they matter even more in the middle and at the end and I think when you compare with the United States, we have to remember we have a very different and much stronger health-care system. They're going to face challenges around distributing vaccines that everyone is facing, but we do a very, very good job; the federal government working with the provinces on getting vaccines out to people. We knew that that working early and aggressively with the vaccine companies which we've been on since the late spring, led us to having this position that is envied by everyone around the world.
Solomon: But it’s envied because we’re quick.
Trudeau: And because we have more potential doses per Canadian and from a larger range of companies given all the uncertainty.
Solomon: But they’ll have vaccinated per capita 20 per cent and we'll be at eight per cent.
Trudeau: Those are projections. We know that things go quicker, things go slower, challenges come. We are doing everything to secure the largest number of doses safely for Canadians as quickly as possible, and we're going to stay focused on that.
Solomon: That cuts both ways you know, we did buy more per capita vaccines than almost any other country. There have been accusations from developing nations that we have practiced vaccine nationalism, we have vacuumed up all the vaccines, on a vaccine shopping spree. What do you say to that?
Trudeau: Well, first of all my job is to look out for Canadians and I will not apologize for doing a good job in establishing the right plan to vaccinate the largest number of Canadians as quickly as possible. That's my job. But at the same time, we were one of the leading founding members of the COVAXS facility, which actually ensures that as we purchase vaccines, we're making vaccines available to the rest of the world.
As Canada gets vaccinated, if we have more vaccines than necessary, absolutely we will be sharing with the world. But you also have to remember that investments early on in vaccine developers, helped them move quicker and better, so countries stepping up with millions of dollars to encourage a range of companies to develop these vaccines, is going to leave everyone better because we don't get through this pandemic anywhere without getting through it everywhere.
Solomon: Let's talk about what happened in the last year, and I get this was unprecedented and the rearview mirror is a lot easier to look through than the windshield, I get it. But if you look at what we could have done better to mitigate some of the disaster: Border closures, could that have happened? Better prep on PPE, earlier mask mandate, there was no national lockdown. There has been frankly a failure to get widely available rapid tests the way other countries have. Looking at all those, what now did you fail to do quick enough and would you have done more quickly if you could have a do-over?
Trudeau: I think I would have done, we would have done PPE quicker. We knew that we had to ensure the protection of our frontline workers. I don't think we understood or expected to see the kind of race for PPE, the international struggle… happening on the tarmac in China and elsewhere, of people trying to get PPE. We ended up being OK, but there are stories of frontline health workers who had to bring their masks home and wash them, that shouldn't have happened.
Solomon: Not border closures? I wonder because look, the Atlantic bubble was successful.
Trudeau: Doing PPE quicker would have been good, but we actually took that learning from not having been as quick as we could have on PPE and the global competition and we applied it to vaccines, which is one of the reasons why we are better on vaccines than just about any other country.
On border closures, we managed it well in terms of people coming into Canada and we didn't see a lot of spread on that, the real spread happened when a lot of people came back from Europe, or from the United States at spring break. That's when the numbers started to spike. No border closure ever keeps Canadians out of Canada, so Canadians returning wouldn't have been affected by border closures in the same way.
Solomon: If you look at New Zealand, they had an experience with SARS like we did. Their chief medical officer said, ‘this is a SARS moment’ and did not follow the WHO, he went quicker and New Zealand had better outcomes. Should we have used our SARS knowledge and acted quicker instead of adhering to the WHO which you know, is fraught with controversy. China wasn't reporting transparently to them. Should we have acted quicker and more independently?
Trudeau: New Zealand did great, but they're an island in the South Pacific a long way from anyone else. We share the longest undefended border, un-militarized border in the world with the United States. What we did on border closures, with the world and then two days later co-ordinating with the United States to ensure the free flow of goods and services that are essential, including pharmaceuticals and food, that was the right thing for Canada.
Solomon: Last question on vaccines, private companies are trying to get hold of some of these vaccines, maybe billionaires who own NHL teams. You've said that you know, it's hard to stop them, but if they can do that and you've got rich people getting vaccines before everyone else. Isn't that essentially two-tier healthcare. Can’t you guys stop that?
Trudeau: What we can ensure is nothing any private company does is going to interfere in any way with the full rollout of free vaccines to all Canadians who want them… What the NHL is trying to do, what sports teams might try to do, we’ll see what they're actually able to do. What we know is the priority has been for vulnerable Canadians, not wealthy fit athletes. The priority is to get it out to people who need it and that's what this government is doing.
THE ECONOMY AND DEFICIT
Solomon: Let's go to the economy. Massive deficits $380 billion, not a lot of debate about the need to support people.
Trudeau: There has been a bit of debate, the Conservatives saying that we shouldn't have moved as fast on people, and we should instead move quicker on businesses.
Solomon: Although Erin O'Toole has said on Tout le monde en parle as you know, he would have done similar support programs.
Trudeau: Except there's no way a Conservative government would have supported artists the way we did, would have supported youth, would have supported some of the vulnerable Canadians.
Solomon: Do you have any plans to bring the books back to balance? Just on the deficit because, you're helping people now, you and I both have kids, our kids are going to be paying for this stuff. Is there a plan? Because since you've been elected, to be frank, you've never met one of your promises to bring it back to balance, every promise on deficits has been broken.
Trudeau: I think people understand that this pandemic is unprecedented and the decision we took in the beginning was that we would have people's backs, we would do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes to support Canadians. That was made because it was the right thing to do, but what we're increasingly seeing around the world by international economists and financial bodies saying it's actually the smart thing to do for the economy. Because the pandemic is going to cost people and the economy money, there's no question about it. It's a hit to our economy.
So the question is, who goes into debt? Do people put it on their credit cards at 19 per cent interest? Or does the federal government which right now is borrowing at close to zero per cent interest, take on that debt to make sure that people can hold through this pandemic? What that leads to is, when the pandemic is over, when vaccines are there and we're rebuilding, we actually have less to rebuild and more to restart because people have been able to hold, and that difference is going to be a huge advantage for Canada.
Solomon: I appreciate that, but in the economic update, there's a promise to spend yet another $100 billion on various programs. They are vague, maybe it's childcare, we don't know, we'll see what happens maybe in a budget. But the truth is you've overshot, the support in some ways. I'll just give you an example. There's been $23 billion in lost income overall, but households have got $56 billion dollars in support, according to Stats Canada. In other words, there is $33 billion more you've given households than they've lost, so household savings is up, disposable income is up, you've pre-loaded the gun. Why do you then have to now promise more stimulus, if you've given people more than they've lost?
Trudeau: First of all, when you come out of a recession you need stimulus to get things going again to accelerate the return to balance, and yes the fact that Canadians who would normally have gone out to a restaurant maybe once a week over the past many months, haven’t done that and therefore have saved a little money.
I can tell you, when this is done and we're allowed to go back to our local favorite pub or restaurant, people are going to rush out and that's going to be a great part of the recovery. But that's not going to be enough. We need to make sure that we are there to support industries that are re-tooling both because of the pandemic to be more digital, but also understanding the need to fight climate change and be more environmentally conscious. There's lots of things that we're going to need to do to give that economy a boost so we can come roaring back as quickly as possible.
Solomon: Any promise to get back to balance ever?
Trudeau: Absolutely. The contextual spending we're doing right now is because of COVID, but we are not adding to the long-term pathway… We came into this pandemic in a better economic situation than just about any other G7 country, and we're still in a better economic position than any other country in the G7.
Solomon: The premiers want $28 billion a year then escalating for health transfers, no strings attached. ‘It's our jurisdiction’ the provinces say, so whether it's long-term care standards or whatever, ‘pony up,’ they say to you. If you give health care transfers will there be strings attached?
Trudeau: I have already said that we recognize the need for increases in the long-term health transfers, there's no question about it. But Canadians also know that there are desperate needs in long-term care for example, where it's not just about money it's about making sure we're properly sharing best practices, making sure that seniors in every corner of the country are just as protected as any senior in any other part of the country. That's part of the federal government's role is to make sure that there's fairness across the country. We're not going to tell provinces how they have to do it, it's their jurisdiction. But, we do need to make sure that Canadians are treated fairly, particularly when it comes to the life and dignity of our elders.
Solomon: Can you just put something to rest? In a speech at the UN you used this phrase the ‘great reset.’ It comes from the name of a book by the founder of the Economic Forum in Davos, a guy named Klaus Schwab. It's been picked up around the world, and by the opposition as some kind of conspiracy of big government. Just tell us finally, what you meant when you said the ‘great reset.’
Trudeau: I didn't say ‘great reset,’ first of all, so you're already buying into a lot of the controversy. I did talk about an opportunity to rethink and even reset our approach, because we've seen that vulnerable people are even more vulnerable because of this COVID-19 crisis, but it has exposed things that have long been standing as challenges, whether it's homelessness, whether it’s long-term care, whether it's inequalities in our system, or whether it's the need to do a better job of fighting climate change.
But you know what Evan, and you know very well over the past five years these are the things we've worked on. Since we got elected in 2015, we created a million jobs and lifted a million people out of poverty, we've focused on the first real plan to fight climate change of any government, yes there are things to this pandemic that we know we get to and need to do more of and that's exactly what I'm focused on.
ETHICS AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Solomon: Let's look back at the WE controversy because if not for the pandemic, it may have been a big one. You lost a finance minister over it. Ethics has been an Achilles heel for you, you know the ethics commissioners two violations, whether it's the Aga Khan's Island or the SNC-Lavalin affair. At that moment knowing your family's relationship with the WE Charity, why weren't you extra careful to just recuse yourself? Like after two hits on this, how do you tell Canadians ‘I don't know why I blew this?’
Trudeau: First of all, I came out right away and said ‘yeah you know what from an optics perspective, I probably should have recused myself and I'm sorry I didn't,’ because when you make a mistake you own up for it. But I think people need to understand the context we were in, I think people know the context we were in. We were trying to get as much help out to as many different people as we possibly could as rapidly as we could. So, we gave money through the United Way for shelters, we gave money through Food Banks Canada for food banks, we worked with all these different partners to help the most vulnerable and the idea of giving a grant to students who volunteered through the summer was a good idea.
It ended up not happening. There were lots of other helps for students that got out from the student CERB to more jobs, but this was one that yeah I wish it hadn't happened that way, but we were focused on helping as many people as quickly as possible and I think Canadians understand that.
Solomon: Let's talk about foreign relations, China, the two Michaels over two years in prison.
Trudeau: This is their third Christmas in prison.
Solomon: Yes. Hostage diplomacy, the treatment of the Uighurs, the crackdown in Hong Kong. This is the third Christmas, it has not worked. Whatever we've done with China has not worked to release them. How are you going to get them free? Is there going to be a change of strategy with China? Will you finally say ‘you know what, we'll join the other five eyes countries and say no to Huawei we can no longer trust them’? What's your view on that?
Trudeau: Well first of all China has obviously changed significantly over the past few years. Their posture around coercive diplomacy has been of concern not just to Canada with these Michaels who have been caught for three years, or for two years and three Christmases, but countries around the world are concerned about this and are shifting their postures on it.
That’s why we are so fortunate as Canada that we have so many allies who have stood up, not just for the values and the principles we hold dear, but actually specifically spoken to China about these two Canadians who are detained. We are going to continue to work and you know Evan that I can't talk about everything we're doing because it is a delicate process, but we have demonstrated over the past many years a tremendous level of success in bringing Canadians home who are stuck in difficult situations overseas. We are not letting up on bringing home these Michaels.
Solomon: But you can say no to Huawei. That's taken years why not?
Trudeau: That’s a decision that needs to be based on the best expert of our specialists and intelligence agencies and we're working with them on that.
Solomon: Do you think China's committing a genocide on the Uighurs?
Trudeau: We are extremely concerned with their behaviour around the Uighurs. I've brought it up repeatedly whenever I've had a conversation with Chinese leadership. We note very carefully the UN reports, the Canadian parliamentary reports. We do need to continue to stand up strongly.
Solomon: Joe Biden the new U.S. president wants to kill the Keystone XL pipeline. What are you going to do to stop them from doing that? Because I know you support it.
Trudeau: I have been advocating for that pipeline as an important part of a continental energy strategy for many years. When I was first leader of the Liberal Party seven years ago I went down to pitch to a room full of Democrats in Washington how important our links were and how important the Keystone XL pipeline is. We're going to continue to work on that.
I think one of the things that we see an opportunity with president-elect Biden, is to work even closer together on energy and environment issues. I brought it up with him in our first conversation, we're going to keep working on that together.
Solomon: Donald Trump's ending his term, whether he likes it or not. When he put the National Guard out and tear gassed those peaceful protesters, you were asked about it. You had 21 seconds of silence. Everyone’s tried to interpret that. Now that he's leaving you don't have to be silent. Was Donald Trump a danger to democracies in the world?
Trudeau: Donald Trump remains president until January 20 and between now and then and beyond, my focus always needs to be on doing what is defending Canada's interests and Canadians’ interests. From steel and aluminum producers, to successfully renegotiating a better NAFTA deal for Canada.
RAPID FIRE QUESTIONS
Solomon: Okay, here's some rapid fire questions. Hardest moment of the last year?
Trudeau: The 14,000 deaths of Canadians to COVID-19.
Solomon: Your biggest weakness as a leader?
Trudeau: That’s partly your job to say it.
Solomon: Maybe what's your blind spot?
Trudeau: Focusing on elements that I think are obvious, that I don't think about political consequences on.
Solomon: The health crisis in B.C., the other health crisis that we don't talk about is opioids. The mayor of Vancouver, Kennedy Stewart, wants small possession of any drug to be decriminalized, would you support that?
Trudeau: Our health minister is working directly with the B.C. health minister on initiatives like that, we have the power to do that in local places. I don't think large-scale decriminalization of drugs is where we are yet.
Solomon: Worst decision you've made as prime minister? Best decision you've made?
Trudeau: Best decision I made was making sure we would have Canadians’ back through this pandemic. That was the core of everything. Worst decision? I don’t think about that.
Solomon: Most dangerous leader in the world right now?
Trudeau: I think there's a number of them. We have to be on guard to it, to a changing universe in global foreign policy.
Solomon: Will Canada be exporting oil in 20 years?
Trudeau: Yes. I think even as we transform our economy, there will still be a need for the next few decades for fossil fuels in their various forms. We just need to get a lot better at decarbonizing them and lean on the experts in the oil and gas industry and the expertise of energy workers to help us transform our economy for the long-term.
Solomon: Does free, prior, and informed consent in the Declaration of Rights of Indigenous peoples give nations, let's say the Wet'suwet'en, a veto over natural resources projects?
Trudeau: The Canadian courts, including the Supreme Court have already answered that. The answer is no, but they do require meaningful consultation and co-operation and that's what we've always demonstrated.
Solomon: The Senate is the first legislative body to have gender parity, but you get to appoint 11 more senators, are you going to make sure that it will continue to have gender parity and make that equal?
Trudeau: That's the easiest question you've asked me. We're going to ensure that that gender parity remains at the center of everything this government does.
LAST QUESTIONS
Solomon: Last question for you, prime minister. You said it, 13,800 Canadians are not going to have their loved ones with them, and it's counting. It's going to be a lonely Christmas for a lot of people, and it's very difficult to have any words for it. Who will you miss most at this Christmas?
Trudeau: Other than my dad who I always miss every Christmas, my mom. My mom, who is the best in the world at Christmas turkey and mixing the turnips and the carrots, which somehow makes both of them— turnips better is easy— but carrots better with turnips in them, it's amazing. My mom is awesome at Christmastime. And even though she's two hours away, I'm not going to see her at Christmas and that hurts, but it's what all Canadians are doing, making tough decisions to be there for each other so we can celebrate many more Christmases together.
Solomon: I agree. Just last thing, are you going to get that vaccine? Because some political leaders say that we should get it first, I know you're going to get it, but should political leaders get it first or are you going to wait your turn?
Trudeau: When the line comes to healthy 40-year-olds to get vaccinated, I will knock you out of the way in my urgency to get that vaccine. But we need to get to the most vulnerable first, and every step of the way it's scientists and experts who are making the recommendations on who should get it first and we'll listen to them like we always have.
Solomon: Good to see you. Merry Christmas, happy holidays, thanks for this.
Trudeau: And mostly, Happy New Year.
Solomon: Happy New Year.
Trudeau: Happy New Year. We deserve that.
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